Wednesday, February 15, 2012

David Payne Rogatory Interview Part 1

Person Interviewed: David PAYNE Number of Pages 45
Place of Interview: Force Headquarters, Enderby Signature of Interviewing
Date of Interview: 11.04.08 Officer producing exhibit
Time Commenced: 1026 hours
Time Concluded: 1154 hours Duration of Interview: 89
minutesInterviewing Officer(s) DC 1485 MESSIAH Tape Reference nos:
Other Persons Present None

Tape counter times Person speaking Text

00:00:04 1485 "Okay, the interview is being video recorded, I’ll make sure it is, yeah, the video, the interview is being video recorded and we are at Leicestershire Police Force, Force Headquarters alright.
The date is Friday the eleventh of April two thousand and eight, and I make the time by my watch ten twenty six.
 My name is DC Ivor MESSIAH and I’m a Detective in the Major Crime Department at Leicestershire Police, alright?”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Could you tell me who you are please? Your name, date of birth and where you live.”
Reply "Yes, my name’s David PAYNE, my date of birth is fourteenth of the fourth, fifty six, I live in *********** ***
, and I, do you want to know, sorry, what else?”

1485 "What’s your occupation?”

Reply "Err I work as a hospital Doctor in err at a Registrar in the Trent Region, currently working in Derby City General Hospital, where I’ve been there for just over a week and then prior to that I was at the Leicester General Hospital, where I’ve been there for err two years.”

1485 "Fine, okay. As we explained on the chat before we came into this interview room, this interview is being monitored.
There is a colleague in another room that’s watching what’s happening here, he’s acting as my second eyes if you like.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "And second ears, if there’s anything I’ve missed you know it’ll be brought to my attention. Equally the Detective Superintendent will also monitor during the course of today, alright?”

Reply "Right.”

00:01:44 1485 "Are you happy to continue knowing that this interview is being recorded?”
Reply "I’m happy to continue.”
1485 "Okay, and subsequently at the end of this interview it may be that a statement is produced probably later on in the day regarding this interview, okay?”

Reply "That’s alright, yes.”

1485 "As I say as I explained as well there may be lots of duplication during this interview, it may be quite tedious because you know you’ll have answered it eleven months ago, equally your mind will be quite hazy I’m sure, the sequence of events you know you were interviewed by the Portuguese early doors.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Last May, and your answers may not be parallel to what you spoke to them about, don’t worry about it, you know it’s passage of time but all I’m asking you to do is to try and recall as much as you can, the days leading up to Madeleine MCCANN’S disappearance because that’s what we’re here to investigate and at the end of the day you are our witnesses, you’re not a suspect you are our witnesses, do you understand that?”

Reply "I do, yes.”

00:02:52 1485 "Okay, David, just tell me a bit about yourself, a bit about your family, you’re obviously married to Fiona PAYNE, you’ve told me where you live, just tell me a bit about yourself and her.”

Reply "Okay, err as I say we have two children, err L*** and Scarlet, err L*** will be err four in August, Scarlet’s nearly two.
 Err as I say we both work as hospital Doctors err we both, err myself and Fiona trained in Leicester err where we graduated from err we both, we met when we were at Medical School and err yeah on the whole we’ve worked in the Leicestershire err region. Err you know we’re both very happy, err…”

1485 "How old are your children sorry? Did you say…”

Reply "Err yes Scarlet will be two in May and L*** will be four in August.”

1485 "And how long you been married?”

Reply "Err we were married since two thousand and three.”

1485 "Two thousand and three?”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Okay. Tell me about your social circle.”

Reply "Okay, err you know, when we got married, we actually got married in Italy and the majority of friends of ours unfortunately, or fortunately, are in the medical profession, I think it’s the way it works with the hours and err yeah the nature of the job and exams etcetera, like you tend to socialise quite a lot with medical people.
 Err obviously the, you know the group who went to Portugal, Russell, err who I knew through, he was in my year at medical school, err subsequently obviously I knew Jane through Russell.
Err in terms of Kate and Gerry, we knew, Fiona had worked with Kate and that’s how I got to know Kate and Gerry, err you know we have probably a, just a, not a tight band of friends but you know its generally the same people, so the people who went, you know a lot of people came our wedding in Italy, who we subsequently had perhaps been on holiday with but we still stay in touch with.
Err and if we socialise with anyone then it tends to be the same, same groups of, same group of people, the majority of them medical, obviously apart from Jane and Rachael of course.”

00:05:31 1485 "Is everybody locally based?”

Reply "Err I mean, err obviously Kate and Gerry being in Leicestershire, Russell and Jane were in the Leicestershire region as well up until last year when they moved err to Exeter.
 Err and then Matt and Rachael, they also you know were originally in Leicestershire and they’ve moved down err working in London.
Err but, you know, other friends we have, you know we have friends dotted around the country err but you know those are the main.”

1485 "The main.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "Okay. Moving on to Portugal, the holiday last year, the holiday started twenty eighth of April and was due to finish the fifth of May I believe. It’s my understanding that you did, you were instrumental really in the arranging.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "The co-ordination of the holiday.”

Reply "That’s correct.”

00:06:37 1485 "What I want you to do now is, don’t assume I know anything, okay.”

Reply "Right.”

1485 "Just imagine that you haven’t spoke to anybody in Portugal about this and tell me in the beginning how it all come to happen, in other words who first decided it was going to be Portugal, and then subsequently what happened up until the day that you went away.”

Reply "Okay. Err it’s a long winded answer.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "I mean when we first, err you know the first kind of concept of a group holiday if you like, was when you know we went to Italy for our wedding where we actually stayed, you know we had all of the guests staying there err for that weekend, and you know, I know they all say your wedding’s the best, one of the best days in your life but it was just absolutely fantastic.
We had children staying there and it was just such a great occasion with, with everyone around and you know everyone came and said what a fantastic, you know, time that they’d had
err so you know that was the kind of, if you like, the beginnings of that, that concept of you know a group holiday err we then subsequently err you know we did have holidays with other people,
you know we went away with Kate and Gerry and other friends err to Majorca and again you know although it was very hard, you know we’d had difficulties with you know with our child just sleeping wise and you know it’s hard work but still you appreciated the fact that there’s a group of you there and we subsequently had been away with err Russell, Jane, and Matt and Rachael err on another group holiday err the year after that,
 and then so we’d always been looking you know to do the same things, it is much easier when you have a group of children you know they interact together and you know it’s great for the parents and you’re all at a similar stage in life with the way that they’re growing up and you know so we were always looking to continue that yearly err holiday,
and you know we knew that Kate and Gerry had met Russell and Jane and so you know, like with the wedding, so all the people had you know a reasonable relationship before err we’d gone away to Portugal.
So you know we were just looking to continue that err last year.
Err we’d all, or certainly we’d been on a Mark Warner before, I think Matt and Rachael and Russell and Jane had been on a Mark Warner type holiday and you know so we were looking to go on that type of holiday where we had err all the amenities that Mark Warner had to offer
so they’ve got you know the sporting facilities, they’ve got the crèche facilities for the children and you know so that, that kind of holiday was what we were looking for.
Err I’m trying to remember when we first chatted about you know going on the holiday.
I mean I can only remember really that we were trying to arrange it probably two or three months err prior to us actually booking the holiday and err but probably we’d been chatting it I’m sure before, it may well have been before Christmas.
Err you know I’d looked on the internet at you know what the availability was in different err locations and Portugal was the only err Mark Warner holiday that would offer err you know a holiday at that time of the year.
 Err so you know we were hoping that the weather would be fine and Portugal was a reasonable distance for taking children on the plane so we, you know, we settled on, on t hat holiday.
Err over the weeks there was quite a lot of discussion about going away, you know, on the Mark Warner holiday err the, you know we, it got to the stage of booking it and then there had been some questioning about the err you know the fact that it wasn’t the kind of (inaudible) same holiday as you know other Mark Warner’s err
you know and you know could they guarantee that we would all be together in err you know the apartments and I’d had quite a discussion with Mark Warner you know email wise just to make, try and make sure that we were guaranteed err together.”
1485 "Yeah.”

00:10:59 Reply "And the rationale for that was just that we would you know it’s just easier if you are all in the same lot, you know you can go next door and you know, just from the children’s point of view you know we would all be segregated if you like.
Err and then obviously there was the discovery that that wasn’t the same, it wasn’t you know the same self contain but err yeah there was similar facilities available.
Err I think, yeah so sorry as I was say just to reinforce you know I quite a lot of correspondence with Mark Warner regarding that and the rest of the group.
Err I think when you, when you’re booking a holiday like this you know I quite enjoy err sorting it out for everybody and err feel some, you know it makes me feel good about myself if I’ve managed to arrange it for everybody and taken the hard work out of it and you know I ended up organising our wedding because Fiona had got her exams,
 and it was the same thing you know a lot of people enjoyed themselves, I wanted to try and do the same thing, make it easier for everybody, and err yeah I know that err again there’d been some concern from Kate and Gerry that they wanted to go away on that, both err parties weren’t a hundred percent you know sure on that type of holiday.
I can’t say exactly you know what the reasons, I can’t remember and from that point of view but in the end you know we just thought oh it’s a great holiday there’s, everybody knows everybody and that we would have a very good time there.
There was err you know some discussion about where we would fly from and who would fly with who and whether we take the Mark Warner flights and from that point of view we err originally, we eventually settled on that you know we would fly out from East Midlands with Kate and Gerry because the timing of the flights was, was perfect,
it wasn’t too early in the morning you know so we don’t have to go at some ridiculous hour, we don’t want to arrive there with kids err tired, and err so you know we, we, err myself, Fiona and L*** and Scarlet then flew out with err Kate and Gerry, Sean, Amelie and Madeleine, and err you know that was basically how we ended up booking the holiday and arriving there.”

00:13:15 1485 "Okay. I’ll just go back to a few things what you’ve said, who did you book the holiday with?”

Reply "Err the, I mean we booked it directly through Mark Warner.”

1485 "Right.”

Reply "Err and the ladies that I dealt a lot with and I have, yeah I’ve got the email, I’ve actually got the document with all the err you know the email correspondence I had, I think it was, the main lady was a lady called Jasminder MING but you know there was other people that I dealt with booking it, but she was the central figure err that helped us in dealing with.”

1485 "Right, and you say that Kate and Gerry initially weren’t that keen because of, what is it they weren’t keen about?”

Reply "Well, say from, you know, from recollections and obviously we have discussed you know the situation since.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "Err was that you know Kate had got an uneasy feeling, that’s all you know, has come back to her and I remember you know again, whether this is something that’s subsequently I feel has happened be, you know before the event, but you know Fiona had certainly mentioned it err that you know Kate wasn’t quite you know, didn’t feel quite easy about it but there was no explanation that I could give you or you know even subsequently err in discussions that you know there wasn’t one thing.
Kate, err I think Gerry’s very, he’s very enthusiastic and I think he’s you know, you see the way that he’s conducted himself you know over the last few months, he’s a very sorted person, a very dynamic person you know he was all you know, don’t worry you know it’ll be fine and everything…”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "Will work its way out and you know whether it be the logistics of the situation that err Kate was more concerned about you know I really couldn’t answer that question.”

1485 "Mm, so just so I’ve got it straight in my head, did the, the concern from Kate materialise with Fiona since or did it come out in the period that the holiday was booked?”

00:15:19 Reply "I, in my mind there was some concern before the holiday but I find it very difficult to separate whether this is just something which is implanted since we’ve discussed after err Madeleine’s disappearance.”

1485 "Right.”

Reply "I can’t, I couldn’t a hundred percent say that in certainty.”

1485 "Okay, and there was some discussion between yourself and Mark Warner regarding the rooms.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "You say you needed the rooms for together?”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "What took, what sort of conversations took place?”

Reply "Err basically when, you know prior to the booking err Mark Warner had err he said oh yes it’s, you know don’t worry we can make sure that all the apartments are together and err then subsequently after booking I then you know,
I, obviously it was just something that was very you know because we knew there was some difficulties geographically that you know you could be split out over quite a distance on the actual Mark Warner site.
Well that would have impacted, we felt you know quite heavily on the holiday if we’d have you know one couple were, you know, completely out on the limb and everyone else was together so when I’d mentioned this again you know just to, just to err you know, confirm that that would be the situation, that we’d be all together they, the reply was I’m afraid we can’t actually guarantee that you will all be together because this is not solely a Mark Warner err set up
you know so unfortunately we are slightly err at the vagaries of the Ocean Club about where couples will be but we’ll do our utmost to make sure that you are you know together.
So err yeah so that’s generally the way that the, err the conversation or the email correspondence went.
Err I, you know there was other things that were slightly different you know obviously from the childcare you know point of view.
They had the, you know they had the listening service that they have, you know at the other Mark Warner venues that we’d been on, and err you know that was part, you know that was the concept again that we were buying in to the Mark Warner and you know when we went out there that was partly,
so again there was some correspondence we had with them just you know, just checking what, what was available in terms of the dinners as well, err Mark Warner’s are generally I think half, you know half board and that wasn’t on offer so there’s some differences with Mark, that, that particular err venue compared with the other Mark Warner’s that the, that the couples I’ve already mentioned had been on previously.”

1485 "Yeah.”

00:18:00 Reply "And err you know just for the record, embarrassingly or as it turns out now in err retrospect you know it’s a small change but you know the Mark Warner had also advertised that you know they were gonna discount the holiday by ten percent you know not long after we booked,
which slightly irritated me, given the fact that we booked it and then he said well actually we don’t have this,
we don’t have this, so I’d had correspondence probably being a bit cheeky just to say what, what, you know you can knock us ten percent off as well and they gave us some discount, which you know looking back just seems, you know, ridiculous.”

1485 "Yeah, in the scale of things. Why specifically was it the Ocean Club?”

Reply "Err I mean as I say, we, we bought into the concept of a group holiday,
we bought into the concept of Mark Warner, we’d all you know, apart from Kate and Gerry I don’t think they’d done Mark Warner, but you know we’d certainly been on that type of holiday before,
and as I you know recall they were the only Mark Warner resort that was open at that time of the year.
I don’t think Egypt was you know available at that time of year,
I don’t think err Turkey was available and certainly Greece,
 so I think at that particular moment in time it was just that Portugal was the only one that opened that early in the season.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "And it just fitted in with our timings, we felt, you know, obviously you go away, you want it to be a bit warmer and you know we thought that Portugal would be ideal.”

1485 "Right. You’ve touched on, about the listening service that you say that Mark Warner supply. What did you understand about their listening service?
What did it actually do?”

Reply "Err I mean traditionally the, the other resorts they’ll have a listening service and what that involves is that, you know, if you’re staying on a Mark Warner err resort they will, you know if you ask for this listening service, the parents can go and have their evening meal and you will supply the details of which you know is your accommodation
and they will go and listen outside the room of each of the err you know the rooms, just to check whether the baby’s crying or there’s, you know there seems to be any problem and you know that was obviously what we were hoping for err there as well.
You know we realised that that wasn’t err what they offered err in Portugal and we knew that they did have err a drop-in err crèche for the evenings,
you know I cannot, you know I cannot tell you what the times were err that you can leave them but you know we all felt you know that we were going there in, with the mindset that you know we, we you know we could do the if you like the listening outside the door
but you know we actually went into rooms or the other couples did and you know do it more frequently and that we were offering exactly the same as what Mark Warner did and the rest of their resort but we were just applying it to Portugal where they didn’t offer that service. Err you know the, the, yeah, so that was really…”

00:21:10 1485 "Yeah, and over what frequency did you understand that they would have done the listening service?”

Reply "I mean in, at the other resorts that we’ve been to err I believe they do it every thirty minutes err you know as I say we actually haven’t used that service when we’ve been but you know the friends who have they’ve, they’ve said it’s around thirty minutes.”

1485 "Yeah, and did the group, were the group aware that that was the listening service’s, well that’s what was available within the listening service? Was…”

Reply "I, I would be pretty sure that most people before they went away knew, its the kind of thing that I’d be a bit anal about, that oh crikey or they don’t offer this and oh you know they said that they ‘d got this and its not available
and I would, you know I’d have seen it as my responsibility again, I haven’t actually checked through the emails, you know obviously some of it may have been on phone calls, to actually validate that but I’d be pretty sure that everyone was aware that we would be going knowing exactly what the circumstances were,
and I think, I suppose for my mindset, the main thing for me was that we were all, everyone was together as a group you know the locality of the, sort of the vicinity of the rooms was, was close enough to make everything as easy as possible,
you know from, from all perspectives, whether it be during the day or, or during the evening.”
00:22:37 1485 "Yeah, okay. So you’ve stopped your recall at the flights, so you get to the airport, airport went okay?”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "Because you said that you flew with Gerry, Kate and Gerry.”

Reply "We did, yes.”

1485 "And…”

Reply "Yeah we had err you know a very good flight err from my, I can remember it wasn’t err, it was, the flight was about nine in the morning, nine, nine thirty.
Err everyone you know seemed, it seemed to go without any event, we didn’t remember it as one of the worst flights we’d ever had going,
I couldn’t say that about some of the other flights that we’ve been on so the kids you know I’m sure they’d, you know it was very easy you know they’d all behaved themselves and there’s as least hassle as possible
err you know everyone’s excited, it’s you know that time of the year you’re all looking forward and err L*** you know and Madeleine you know had met many times before and you know they were happy to be together
err I can remember you know them holding hands and you know getting on the plane and we’ve got the video footage on the, you know on the err phone of that you know when Madeleine, you know, slipped and banged her leg.
Err you know it was as I say a very straight forward flight, got there with minimal hassle err at some stage you know there was some text messages with the rest of the group they’d you know already arrived before us.
 Err you know we were met by, err you know Gerry had organised err the taxi side of it err over in err Portugal, you know it had been my responsibility to sort out the Mark Warner and everything and Gerry had err had you know err paid for the flight and he’d sorted the taxis out over there.
Err you know the being concerned about the child seats in the taxi but you know we were all relatively happy err going to the resort, it just all seemed very straight forward, very seamless, err you know we were, as I say there was, there was just no problems that you really could recall at that stage, it was very straight forward.”

00:25:01 1485 "During the flight did Kate refer to her concerns again?”

Reply "No, no I mean err you know she, I think to play on that particular aspect of like how worried she was about going away would probably be over cooking it really, overstating the case.
Err you know Kate is a, you know is a very optimistic person and you know once she’d made the decision you know went with it and you know Kate very happy to be there and part of the group and certainly didn’t voice any concerns going over there.”

1485 "Okay. The rest of the group, sorry, in your group, in your flight…”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Was yourself.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Fiona.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Your two children.”

Reply "That’s correct.”

1485 "Dianne
Reply "Err yes Dianne, yes.”

1485 "Kate, Gerry, Amelie.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "Madeleine and Sean.”

Reply "That’s correct.”

1485 "Yeah, and you flew from East Midlands?”

Reply "That’s correct.”

1485 "The others, where did the others fly from?”

Reply "Err the others flew from, I think it was Heathrow,
 I’m not a hundred percent sure, Heathrow or Gatwick, but err you know they, I think they’d, they’d gone with a Mark Warner flight which was supplied with the, as I say the Heathrow or Gatwick, and so they’d gone at any earlier flight but I think you know it was err you know a cheaper option.
 We ended up paying extra money than, you know, want for the flight times which were more appropriate and not having to travel down err to London,
but we felt that was more you know as I say better for the children, they’d get a longer sleep plus we didn’t have to pay for car parks down in London and petrol etcetera so err but I cannot, I’m not a hundred percent sure whether it’s Heathrow or Gatwick, sorry.”

00:26:49 1485 "Okay, okay. So when you get to Portugal, tell me about the scenario from the time you left the airport to the time you was actually booked in at the Ocean Club.”

Reply "Yes, yeah err the, you know we, we got the, the taxi which Gerry had sorted out err you know I say we got all the baggage in err you know from the seat,
the car seating we were just trying to work out what the best options and where to put the children into the taxi.
We then had the journey from the airport to Praia Da Luz and err you know again very straight forward err yeah I can’t remember how long it took whether it be forty minutes or, or whatever.
Err we arrived there, there was a little bit of difficulty actually finding err where we needed to be err at the err Ocean Club.
Yeah I seem to, we had some texts I think in the, you know with err Russell and Matt, you know where were they, what were they up to and you know the rooms and etcetera.
We then, we finally found the err the reception at the Ocean Club which was you know err geographically slightly different distance from where we were err staying err and then we were met err at the reception there.
 Again, I can’t remember who err met us, we gave err you know we picked up err you know so we got a letter and we were, we then went back on to the err transport which took us down to the rooms but I think you know there was either one or two of the Mark Warner representatives
and then we you know we then went to the rooms that we were allocated and err you know obviously err Russell, Jane and Matt and Rachael were already err in their rooms and then we just kind of looked at the sheets and oh that’s where our room is, we found the room and Kate and Gerry then went off err to their room.
Err we, you know we’d kind of meet up and have a chat about what’s going on there you know and that’s how we arrived at the rooms.”

00:29:04 1485 "Okay, tell me about your room.”

Reply "Okay.”

1485 "Where it was, or…”

Reply "We, yeah we were, we were slightly different to the other three apartments err we were, we were upstairs err we,
you know the other parties were all err in the apartments downstairs, err you went in through the, you know, the door into the apartment which took you into the living area.
Err in the living area slightly to the right was the dining room, all open plan, and there was a patio doors you know which led out to the balcony.
Err if you turned right immediately into the apartment there was the, err the kitchen, err if you went into the main living area and turned left that took you to the, err bedrooms and the bathroom.
The first on the left was one of the bedrooms as you’re walking along and then you had, going in an anticlockwise direction, there was the, err the bathroom and then the next room you know anticlockwise was the other bedroom.
 Err and then there was the, obviously the lounge part, there was the television, there was err, err a sofa in there which was a sofa bed which is where Dianne err slept and I say then there was a balcony with a sliding doors which led out to the balcony.
Err so that’s pretty much the, the apartment.”

00:30:33 1485 "How good are you at sketching?”
Reply "Err, not very good.”

1485 "Otherwise it’s just a brief like birds-eye view floor plan of when you come in.”

Reply "Okay. So if you were walking through the door err here, which you opened, as you walk in here the kitchen would have been just here, and there was a doorway just leading in, into the kitchen.
This was part of the dining room, you know you’ve got the sliding doors which were, you know just situated here, this was the, err where the dining room table was.
You had the err lounge part here, there was a television just over, you know, in the corner here and there’s another chair about there and then I think there’s the sofa was over here.
Err there was a err piece of furniture like a dresser or a side cabinet there, as you came along here, I’ve drawn this bit wrong.”

1485 "It’s alright.”

Reply "The, the, yeah the first bedroom would have been you know kind of here.
Then you had the bathroom which was here and then you had the next bedroom was here, so the doorways were in there, no sorry there and there into the bedrooms, yeah.”

1485 "Yeah?”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "I’ve got the gist of that.”

Reply "But that’s, yeah so.”

00:32:07 1485 "Just mark on what rooms they are, you say that’s the kitchen.”

Reply "So that’s the kitchen there, that’s the dining room, that’s kind of the lounge there, that’s the balcony, err so that’s bedroom one, that’s the bathroom, that’s bedroom two.”

1485 "Okay so we have bedroom one and we have bedroom two.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Which bedroom did your children sleep in?”

Reply "Err in…”

1485 "Or which did you designate for them to sleep in?”

Reply "Yeah we had err L*** err was in bedroom one and…”

1485 "That’s the one nearest to that door there.”

Reply "That’s correct.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "And Scarlet was staying in with us in bedroom two. Err and as I say Dianne was in the lounge err on a, on a, you know the sofa bed.”

00:33:11 1485 "Right. The door, the outside door that you entered, what sort of a door was that?”

Reply "Err…”

1485 "Sorry, weird question really.”

Reply "Yes, yes.”

1485 "How did it lock, and…”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Was it secure?”

Reply "Err you needed, yeah once the door was shut, you know you needed the keys to, you know to gain entry err into the apartment.
Err I can’t remember whether we ever had, you know whether you can deadlock it so that you could get in and out with the door open,
but essentially you needed the key you know, to use, if I remember to gain access into the, err into the apartment, and you know generally it was difficult because there was, you know we’d ask about more than one key,
there was the only one key to the apartment so during the day time you know we left the key under the, the err there was a mat err outside,
err you know that you wipe your feet on, and err you know that’s, that’s basically how we gained entry into it during the day time.”

00:34:18 1485 "And your pat, you say your patio doors.”

Reply "Mm.”

1485 "So you were on, upstairs?”

Reply "We were.”

1485 "Is that the first floor or the second floor?”

Reply "Err so ground floor is obviously the floor where you’re walking around.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "And then you went up one flight of stairs err to what I would call the first floor.”

1485 "Okay, and how was that door accessed?”

Reply "Err I mean essentially you know as you came out of the apartment we were quite close to err a lift err and you know stairs at the side so you virtually come out of that lift or at the stairs and then you would go into that apartment, but there was access err to other apartments with a walk way generally along the side.”

1485 "Yeah, and once you’d got outside, what’s the scenario outside?”

Reply "Err I mean if you, you’re coming out of the apartment through the err front door you, you know as I say you were close to the lift and elevator.
 If you went to the side of that there was you know like a balcony that you could then look on err you know out on the car park err and then you could see you know the main road,
you know, beyond that and then there was err some other apartments that you could make out you know which were a reasonable distance away but you could, you know, see, you know you could make out people at that distance.
Err and that was essentially it.”

00:35:42 1485 "Okay. I’ve got another sketch for you to draw now but I’m not looking for anything to Rolf Harris.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "Just a birds-eye view of your apartment.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "In relation to the rest of your group.”

Reply "Right. This…”

1485 "I know that you say that you’re upstairs and they’re downstairs.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "If you could just sort of do a block of upstairs.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "And then do a block of downstairs and then pinpoint where they were, if you see what I mean.”

Reply "Okay, yeah. So, I mean, if you, if that was the end of the block and this is the ground, err sorry this is the upstairs.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "So I’ve got first floor on that. The err so if you were out on the balcony here.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "I mean it was slightly difficult because you were , you know, you couldn’t quite see down below, whether, sorry, then if this is the ground floor err block.
It’s obviously it’s very easy to remember that err Kate and Gerry’s apartment was right you know at the end.”

1485 "Yes.”

Reply "Of there.
There was certainly a gap in between one of the apartments and I can’t remember whether that gap was in between err Kate and Gerry’s and Matt and Rachael’s, or that whether it was between Matt and Rachael’s and Russell and Jane’s
but essentially you know, this, sorry I’ll just draw these on, so that’s the front, that’s the front, err Russ and Jane’s were the closest to us so you know they were directly below.”

1485 "Yes.”

Reply "Then Matt and Rachael, so, so Russ and Jane, so Matt and Rachael were either next door to Russ and Jane or there was a gap in between and then you had Kate and Gerry’s, you know at the end, but I can’t really give it any more...”

1485 "Yeah that’s fine, that’s fine.”

Reply "Yeah, so…”

00:37:52 1485 "So the rear then, which is that side there.”

Reply "Yes, yeah.”

1485 "Have you got the pool in front of you then?”

Reply "Yes, I mean look, looking, err looking out err the pool err was slightly off to the side but you know kind of that angle err but you know we had very good vision err of the pool and people.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "Err you know by the side of the pool and err yeah and in between obviously the, the apartments there was the back of the apartments where they you know you could walk out at which part of the apartment and then there was the walk where the alley way which you know then separated the block from the Ocean Club.
 Err so we generally, if I chatted to anyone it wasn’t usually when they were in the garden below us it was more, they would be either walking you know we’d be sat on the balcony and someone would walk by or someone was at the pool and we’d have a conversation, kind of thing.”

00:38:48 1485 "Yeah. Just jumping back, I’ve got a little bit ahead of myself, the listening service I understand that you made your own arrangements in relation to listening, child listening?”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "What’s the circumstances regarding your listening arrangements?”

Reply "Err we, yeah, had err got a digital monitor which you know we obviously we used back, back home.
 Err yeah it was very good, it was very foolproof,
we were very happy with the monitor.
Err it’s quite a high tech monitor, you could play tunes at the other end of the monitor and so you know when err Scarlet was very little we had that option to use that.
So you know we had chatted about what we felt was you know reasonably err you know safe, and we say safe in the perspective of you know both our children at that stage were in cots,
you know I think the two main things that you would be concerned about or you know obviously not retrospectively now but certainly before the holiday was whether the child was gonna wake up crying you or whether the child could get you know away from the area where they were.
So from our point of view we thought well they’re both in cots,
they can’t get out their cots and the monitor you know covered the crying issue.
 Err the monitor we checked you know that it worked and that you could hear you know from that distance err there’s,
I think there’s a fail safe on it if it loses signal it start, you know the distance between the base and the err mobile unit err you know, you, you get red lights showing that there is, you know that the reception is being lost.
So you know we did chat you know right from the beginning whether we felt that was, you know that was reasonable and in our assessment we felt that was reasonable.
Err you know we, we generally stayed err in the room, no sorry in the apartment until the children you know had fallen asleep,
you know and then, you know we did all go down together and err so yeah there was occasions where you could hear something perhaps on the monitor in the room while you were you know over in the Tapas area.
Err so you know on the whole we, you know, we were happy…”
1485 "You were okay with that?”

00:41:22 Reply "With that, that scenario”.

1485 "Where did you, where did you place the intercom when you went?”

Reply "Err the, obviously with the, the map of the, err the rooms err you know we, we tended to leave the doors open of the two rooms and we either left them, you know, usually left the monitor here.
Err I can’t remember exactly where the plug point was but usually because we were, you know, if anyone was gonna cry it was more likely gonna be Scarlet but you could hear.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "You know but the, the distance between the two rooms is nothing.”

1485 "Yes.”

Reply "And err you know so it was virtually slightly closer to bedroom two but certainly you know, no, no distance at all from bedroom one.”

1485 "Mm.”

Reply "You know there were, you know the, the, the, you know as I say the quality of the err listening monitor was, you could set the sensitivity of it to you know whatever you wanted and you know we obviously had it on maximum sensitivity and there was no concern about you know we weren’t gonna hear them when they were crying.”

00:42:38 1485 "What about the sliding doors in the apartment, what were they like?”

Reply "Err the sliding doors were a slight, they were slightly difficult to lock and that was you know one of our concerns err when we were there and it was,
it was quite temperamental whether you could open them or, or, or lock them, and err yeah especially you know sometimes we had the other children coming up there so it was difficult but there was someone on the balcony or if their children were to you know venture out we would keep an eye and you know explain to them that they shouldn’t be out on the balcony you know without an adult present.
Err but obviously we tried to keep the err door shut when no-one was out on the balcony and err open if there’s someone sat out there keeping an eye on them.
Err the way it opened and locked was again I think it was err like a, a, a lat, you know like a lever which went up and down and I just remember it not being the most easy to err work out how to shut and, a bit temperamental.”

1485 "Mm.”

Reply "So err you know so that was probably one of the slight difficulties with that room.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "You know, being on the first floor.”

1485 "Did any of the internal doors have any locks on?”

Reply "Err the bathroom did but I can’t remember the, whether the bedrooms did or not.”

00:44:11 1485 "Okay. So the picture I was painting there was just to get a, for me to get a view really of…”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Of what you were faced with when you got your apartment.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Do you remember what number your apartment was?”

Reply "Err four G? I don’t know, I don’t know. I probably would have said, well hopefully I would have said on my previous statement you know.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "But four, you know…”

1485 "It’s what you can remember now.”

Reply "Four G kind of rings a bell but I wouldn’t certainly, you know.”

1485 "Okay, okay. So moving on then, we, you arrive at your apartment.”

Reply "Mm.”

1485 "You say that you’ve, that the bus has took you round, you’ve gone to yours, Gerry and Kate have gone to theirs, Matt and Rachael and Russell were already there.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "What sort of time in the day was this?”

Reply "Crikey, err it was,
 I’d have said mid afternoon, yeah perhaps around three, four o’ clock err in the afternoon, still, you know light, still some time in the day left yeah to enjoy it, and again that was one of the benefits of that flight, it was a nice time that we weren’t arriving there at, at night,
you know the kids would go straight to bed so you just had a bit of day light, you know just to see what the place was like and err you know just to make the most of that bit of day that you had left.”

00:45:32 1485 "Okay. So now what I want you to do is talk me through the rest of your day. Try and, try not to leave out anything.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "How menial it may be.”

Reply "Mm.”

1485 "If you can remember talking to anybody to the time you went to bed.”

Reply "Mm, err I think one of the things that I remember is there was difficulties you know we was trying to get the cots situation sorted out and I can’t remember,
I mean I’ve thought about this when, you know because I went into Kate and Gerry’s apartment right,
you know from the beginning to sort out one of the cots because I don’t think they, you know, there was a spare one they, they’d had or just to work that out, but err you know during, during the day as I say I,
its such a long time ago and all I can remember is we were you know excited, we were going into one person’s apartment, having a chat and seeing where they’d been, err you know but I must admit I can’t give any detail really err regarding exactly who we chatted to or what, the rest of that day.
 Err you know we, you know we all went err to Millennium, again I, whether it was the Saturday night or the Sunday night I’m not, I can’t recall.”

1485 "Mm.”

00:46:51 Reply "And err you know we all, you know that was the first group meeting that we’d had all, altogether but I’m sorry I can’t really recall more.”

1485 "Mm, how long before you all went to the Millennium, I appreciate you’re all excited and, in your words, you’d gone into each others apartments, you’d gone into you know Kate and Gerry’s.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "How long before you’d all sort of, all the excitement had subsided if you like before you eventually went up to, left the apartments as a group?”

Reply "Yes, I’m really sorry I can’t say exactly what time.”
1485 "No, sort of rough time.”

Reply "Rough, roughly?”

1485 "Rough sort of time span.”

Reply "Err I mean, several, it must have been several hours because the girls you know were excited, they’re playing and everything, so I, I’d say several hours but I’m sorry, I can’t say any more.”

1485 "That’s okay, if you can’t remember times…”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "During this interview, try and refer to time spans.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "That might make it, that’s a more of a broader…”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "Spectrum isn’t it.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Rather than say from four till five if you say a couple of hours, you know, that will probably help me to build a picture.”

Reply "Yes, yes.”

1485 "Of you know the chronologic in your day really.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "So the period of time was a couple of hours from arriving to going up to the Millennium?”

Reply "Err I’d have said something around two to three hours.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "Probably, roughly.”

00:48:19 1485 "And you all went up as a group?”

Reply "Err again, as far as I can remember we were all there, you know, it just seemed like the first, as I say as far as I can remember it was the Saturday evening
we all went up there err you know you want to explore as well, you know this was one of the places that we’d been told you know err would, whether there was a reception there you know and we’d been advised to go there that night you know,
 again I can’t remember if that was on the information advice but that’s what we, you know decided on, and err you know just to see what it was like up there and you know you want to explore what the rest of the place is like.
You know you’re already thinking you know where are you gonna eat, perhaps on other nights and err things like that, err so we went up there you know as far as I can remember that night and with the, with the whole group.”

1485 "Okay. How long do you think you stayed up there? Again, no, doesn’t have to be times but more sort of time spans.”

Reply "Err I thought we were there, you know a good couple of hours, it certainly felt, you know, err around that time span.”

1485 "Mm.”

Reply "Err, yeah just working out you know where we’re gonna eat and sit, sit down there and you know think there wasn’t gonna be too many people there right at the beginning err eating in the Millennium, and err you know its like where are the high chairs its all new err get them sit down then you’re all having a good chat you know you met up and err certainly you know two hours or maybe longer.”

00:49:54 1485 "Mm, and when you finally left did everybody leave as a group? Or did you leave in dribs and drabs?”

Reply "I haven’t a clue, I really can’t recall.”

1485 "Did you go anywhere else that night?”

Reply "Err I don’t think we did no, I don’t think so.”

1485 "You didn’t go back to the Tapas bar?”

Reply "No.”

1485 "The first night.”

Reply "No.”

1485 "Okay, and during, I know you say generally speaking you were all chatting and excited about the holiday, but is there anything that stands out in your mind that you’d spoke about on that first day?”

Reply "Err, I mean, you know the fact, I think the fact that we were upstairs was you know, you know going back to my slightly embarrassing side of you know moaning so much about being together and everything and we’d ended up being put up, upstairs you know err so it you know it just felt like,
you know whether I’d been opening my mouth too much and they put us you know above everyone else and whether that was perceived as any difference to the other apartments in terms of you know was it better to have a balcony upstairs and, you know.”

1485 "Mm.”

Reply "Slightly better view looking across at the sea or whatever you know...”

1485 "The rivalry crept in did it?”

00:51:18 Reply "Well not that anyone said that or anything but you just, you know again you don’t want to be, err whether they were placating us just to make, you know because I’d moaned so much.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "But a, but apart from that I think you know everyone had err settled in err pretty much err we could well have had a beer in the apartment you know earlier on in the day again and you know just, I can’t remember you know exactly, but you know everyone was relatively happy and unscathed.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "I think when you’re err commuting with children, flying and airports they all get very tired and grumpy and I think we all, were all quite unscathed err and we were just looking forward to the week ahead and you know what activities we were gonna do, so there was nothing really that stood out at all, no.”

1485 "Okay. Did anybody comment about the listening service that night, the first night?”

Reply "Comment? Not that I’m aware of, not that I’m aware of.
Err yeah I say you know it’s a, you know it’s a reasonably sized group, you’ve got quite a lot of high chairs intermingled you know so it kind of splits the group up a bit and you know so if anyone else had that conversation then perhaps but it’s certainly something that I don’t recall.
You know there certainly wasn’t you know any, I don’t think, there wasn’t certainly err a feeling of oh crikey this isn’t, err you know this is, this is not a safe place,
you know as a, you know a small community you know we may have commented it’s different to err previous Mark Warner’s, whether that was that night or whether that was another night in that you know it wasn’t, you know what we’d all been on a Mark Warner before,
you know we were all perhaps quite, it wasn’t quite as obvious you know as we thought that it wouldn’t be, you know like the other places, quite as self contained but there wasn’t still a feeling of err concern you know, we were, you know we were all, we were still very enthusiastic about err the holiday.
 I mean that wasn’t you know generally, you know if there’s something which is a miss, out of place then these things tend to get, you know mooted around the group so it wasn’t something that was you know really chatted at any great length if it was discussed at all.”

1485 "Yeah.”

00:53:53 Reply "I think the only thing that probably became apparent about the Millennium where we ate was that that was a distance away from where we were staying and in terms of you know the logistics of getting from where we were to there with the small children and you know the pushchairs when some of them were perhaps a little bit old to go in the pushchair and wanted to walk, which it was just a little bit too far for them to walk.
There was the, you know, the main, there’s a main road that you had to cross over which, well it wasn’t busy busy but you know, so that was, you know if there’s any discussion I’d have said that was probably the most you know err that might have been said that night.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "But I mean again, that doesn’t stand out majorly in my mind.”

1485 "Yeah, okay. So the night ended, you’ve gone back to your apartments.”

Reply "Mm.”

1485 "Anybody back to each other’s apartments or was it just general…”

Reply "(Sigh) err I’m, I’m, sorry I can’t, I just can’t recall.”

1485 "Okay, well did anybody come back to your apartment on the first night?”

Reply "Err you know, they could have done, but I can’t, I can’t recall at all.”

1485 "Okay. I forgot to ask you, could you see the Tapas bar from your balcony?”

Reply "You, you can yes, I mean there’s a, there’s a screen which is in the way err you know for a direct vision so if you were going from, from looking out from our apartment, you know you have the, obviously the gardens of the people’s apartments directly below us, then you had the alley way, then you had a bit of land, then you had the swimming pool, then a bit more land then you had the Tapas bar.”

1485 "Mm.”

Reply "But in between the pool and the Tapas bar there was some screening but you know it wasn’t to the stage that you couldn’t see through the screening.
Err but to the degree of could you see who was exactly in the Tapas bar and where they were sat, it wasn’t that easy you know to make that out but you could see the Tapas area.”

00:56:03 1485 "Yeah, I mean as the crow flies, how far do you think it was from your balcony to the Tapas bar?”

Reply "Err I would have said about, about thirty metres.”

1485 "And how long would it take you to walk…”

Reply "To walk down.”

1485 "From your apartment to the Tapas?”

Reply "Okay, so I mean you, the majority was you know, you’d go down the stairs, you’d go round err through the car park, turn right, right down the road and go in through the main entrance, so you’re looking at a couple of minutes you know walk.”

1485 "Mm.”

Reply "Err from leaving the door to arriving at the Tapas bar err you know there, there’s a way you could go slightly around the side but I, you know, again in terms of time to get in, get in to the Tapas bar I don’t think it made a great deal of err difference.”

1485 "Okay. So let’s move on to the next day, your first full day which is the Sunday.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "Tell me as much as you can.”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "From the time you got up till the time you went to bed.”

00:57:18 Reply "I think err from my point of view, you know I find it very difficult to recall the exact events you know err you know on a day to day err basis.
You know I find it easier just to say generally what happened you know during the week than…”

1485 "Well the first day you would have sorted out your activities wouldn’t you?”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "So if that helps you…”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "To at least get the first day out the way.”

Reply "Yeah, err you know we, I mean the one thing that we, me and Fiona were quite keen on would be to err you know there was, on the water sports err side of things.
Err we were keen to put the kids into the crèche you know for the morning, err you know we were gonna look, you know the, ours tended to sleep during the afternoon so err you know on the, again we’d have perhaps gone down to the water,
you know the water sports area just to you know maybe to sign up for courses there, err as I say we were just generally interested in trying to err windsurf and perhaps go on the dinghies.
Err other members of the group were really interested in you know the tennis side of things and getting the lessons but I’m really sorry I can’t remember exactly.”

00:58:37 1485 "Where did you breakfast on the first day?”

Reply "Err I mean we could you know obviously there’s the Supermarket, which wasn’t too err far away,
 did we all go up, I’m trying to think whether we went to the Millennium for the breakfast or whether we went to the Supermarket on the first day. I can’t remember, I’m sorry.”

Reply "Okay, and you mentioned your crèches.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Did you take your…”

Reply "Yeah.”

1485 "What time would you have taken them to the crèche?”

Reply "I mean well L*** and err Scarlet you know, being the different age groups, were in different places and err Scarlet was down by the err the actual reception at the Ocean Club and err Scarlet, err L*** was up at the err Tapas bar.
Err so generally Fi would take Scarlet after breakfast err which we you know we did often have.
Again you know we stayed on for four weeks unfortunately after and you know we had breakfast in the apartment and it just blurs.”

1485 "Yeah.”

Reply "One into the other, whether you know we were at the Millennium but I seem to remember that we would generally go to the Millennium.
There was one morning I can recollect that err you know that Kate and Gerry were walking back and found it difficult because Sean and Amelie were, as I say, in the age where they wanted to walk
but it was difficult to get them and I think they were, you know generally thinking that the Millennium for breakfast wasn’t probably a particularly a good idea,
 which you know I think more often than not we generally ate at the Millennium,
err and then after we’d eaten breakfast there which, and again I think finished at nine o’ clock, we would then, you know after we’d finished breakfast try and get them down to err you know drop them off at the Ocean Club or at the crèche by the Tapas,
then you know depending on whether there was anything going on that morning from the sporting point of view then you know we’d go wherever.
Err you know mixed into the melee was you know we often went in the morning to the Supermarket to do a bit of a shop and you know with a big group that we seemed to get through things pretty quickly and err so as I say I’m afraid one day does blur into another, I can’t really recall specifics.”

01:01:02 1485 "Okay. I understand that your apartment was like the meeting place.”

Reply "Yes.”

1485 "Can you recall that?”

Reply "Yes, definitely. Err you know,
 I, I, it just happened you know the way it happened you know people just gravitated up to err to our room err you know it’s,
 I suppose some part we’d got Dianne there who is fantastic at you know helping, you know it’s a free set of hands whereas you know Russ and Jane obviously they’ve got two, and we’ve got two and so you know it was good that we’ve got someone extra to help out while you know someone’s preparing the food,
keep an eye on the children, err so often you know we would, you know we’d con, congregate there at lunch time and quite often if I remember Matt and Rachael would bring G***e along and you know we’d eat there together.
Err a lot of the time we didn’t tend to see you know Kate and Gerry you know it was more Russell and Jane primarily I remember,
and sometimes Matt and Rachael and G***e but generally err Kate and Gerry would do their own thing
err you know during the day, so that’s, but they you know they would still come up you know from time to time.
So it was well used at the, that first floor.”

01:02:26 1485 "Was it, I notice you say that you didn’t see much of Kate and Gerry and you that sparsely see Russell and, was it something that you discussed before the holiday that you was gonna all do your own thing in the day then just meet up for night time?”